Episode #93 Transcript: “Women Supporting Women Supporting Women”

Episode Number: 93
Episode Title: Women Supporting Women Supporting Women (listen to this episode)
Transcript by: Susan the Great
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Renay: Hello friends, I’m Renay.

Ana: And I’m Ana.

Renay: And you’re listening to Fangirl Happy Hour.

[music break]

Renay: Today we’re going to cover some feedback and updates, we’re going to discuss Hawkeye: Kate Bishop, the first volume in the new Hawkeye comic, featuring, yes, Kate Bishop, that Kate Bishop, the Kate Bishop we all love. And then we’re going to talk to Tansy Rayner Roberts!

Ana: It’s a crossover event that everybody has been waiting for!

Renay: We’re super excited. Tansy is great. And then of course we’re going to do some recommendations.

[music break]

Renay: Okay, feedback and updates! Responding to a recent Question Tuesday, Biblioaesthetica said, “Hey space bees! I finally caught up to your mid-July Question Tuesday where you addressed my question.” They asked about how to recognize mansplaining. “And I wanted to say thanks. I’m lucky that most of my friends are trusted feminists but sometimes meeting new folks has its pitfalls. I’m working on better communication and reading, and it was reassuring to hear your words of encouragement.” I hope we helped a little. Sometimes it’s good just to know that people have your back. It can help your confidence.

Ana: Absolutely.

Renay: So an anonymous bee on tumblr, as well as listener Megan, sent advice on how I could finally live my dream and read the whole Animorphs series without exploding my book budget, so thanks to both of you for understanding my burning need to revisit this series. Anonymous bee also said, “There is also a great retrospective podcast called Morph Club by two female friends that’s quite funny that you can find by searching for Morph Club Animorphs Podcast.” And guess what I’m about to start listening to! [laughter]

Ana: We can find anything online. Anything. How did people live before this?

Renay: I don’t remember my childhood very well, but it wasn’t as great as it is right now. The future is wonderful!

Ana: Well, apart from the Nazis that come from the past.

Renay: That’s true. Stupid Nazis.

And then a few months ago we got an email from Addie, and Addie I’m so sorry we never responded to the email because it was in April when my life started exploding and it never quite stopped. To everyone who enjoyed the Hugo packet that we put out, Addie suggested two of the segments we included. And she wrote, “First off, thanks for answering my question a few weeks back, I found your questions so helpful. In particular I started reading non-fiction before bed. I used to not allow myself to read some nights because without fail I would say ‘just one more chapter’ four times and then stay up way too late. It’s way easier to put down nonfiction and get some sleep and I’m already halfway through a new book.” This is such great news. My ideas are brilliant.

Ana: They are.

Renay: Non-fiction before bed. Except maybe not political non-fiction if you don’t wanna get super pissed.

Ana: Look, I got this nonfiction novel to read.

Renay: [gasp] Ana got a nonfiction book and she’s reading it!

Ana: Uh, no. I haven’t started yet, Renay.

Renay: Oh.

Ana: I got the first step which is to get the book. And it’s a true crime.

Renay: Who’s it by and what’s the title?

Ana: It’s called The Adversary by Emmanuel Carrère, and it’s a true story of monstrous deception. It’s about a man killing women. [sigh] But it’s blurbed by Junot Díaz and by Laurent Binet, who wrote Hate Hate Hate Hate, which I loved. This guy, this author is a master of psychological suspense.

Renay: What great pre-bedtime reading.

Ana: I’m gonna start it tonight.

Renay: [laughter] Well let us know how it goes.

Ana: I will. Maybe I will recommend it soon in this very podcast.

Renay: So thanks to everybody who wrote in, if you have any questions or comments for us, feel free to email us anytime at fangirlhappyhour@gmail.com or ping us on any of our social media.

[music break]

Renay: Hawkeye: Kate Bishop Volume One: Anchor Points is by Kelly Thompson, Leonardo Romero, Michael Walsh, and Jordie Bellaire, and it’s about Kate and her adventures in Venice Beach, California starting her own PI firm. Kate has lots of adventures, makes lots of new friends, and also gets to beat up lots of dudes, which I’m definitely for.

Ana: Also contains Jessica Jones.

Renay: It’s wonderful. I was pulling this comic and part way through we had some money issues so I stopped and just ahead and bought the trade. I have to say I’m super glad that I got the trade of this book. It is fine in issue, but when you have the whole thing it’s wonderful.

Ana: I said this before: I feel like reading trades makes for a better experience. And I dunno how the comic industry can address this in a way it doesn’t kill itself if we don’t buy the monthlies, but can still keep going with the trades. Because it’s so much better! It’s like it’s a whole experience and it’s a contained storyline or at least the beginning of one. And I really love that it adds the variant covers, too. It’s just a more in depth experience, I feel.

Renay: Imagine reading the first issue and then not having any left which is what happened to me.

Ana: I don’t need to imagine because that happened, exactly, because I got the first issue as a Christmas present from Russell.

Renay: Oh NO! No spoilers, but, yikes.

Ana: Totally.

Renay: So this comic is about Kate finding her way in Venice Beach and trying to start her own private detective agency and making new friends.

Ana: And moving away from the other Hawkeye, right? A little bit from under the shadow of him and one of the running gags of this trade is like everybody keeps saying, “Oh, Hawkeye’s the dude, right? The really cool dude?” and she’s like, “I am Hawkeye, too!” But I like that it’s kind of like independence for her. But is still looking up to mentors. One of them being Jessica Jones.

Renay: Part of what I love is all the excellent relationships that Kate has with women, both peers and mentors.

Ana: Yes.

Renay: It was brilliant to see women’s relationship portrayed like that and all the relationships were very different.

Ana: Mm-hm.

Renay: Even the one with her peers. I guess I get shocked by that, because in Marvel comics I’m not used to seeing it so much outside of Ms Marvel.

Ana: Do you know what? Now that you say that it’s really interesting because of course it’s a Marvel comic, but it didn’t feel like a Marvel comic reading it. It felt like an indie comic.

Renay: Well, I really liked it. I think she totally hit Kate’s character. It was a bullseye. I did just make that pun and I’m not ashamed.

Ana: God. That was great. That was beautiful, I have to say I’m very proud of this moment to know you.

Renay: So the first five issues are one storyline, and then there’s two issues with another one, a smaller one, is that how it goes?

Ana: No. It’s the first—cause there are six issues here, so the first four, and then the last two.

Renay: The first four are about a girl who is being stalked, via the internet, and she comes to Kate for help, and it resolves that storyline. Mikka is the girl who comes to Kate for help, and through that mission Kate meets Ramone, who runs a shop nearby. Ramone turns out to be Mikka’s girlfriend. Kate meets Quinn, a student at the local university who becomes her tech genius, and also Johnny, Ramone’s brother. And the scene where they have their little, “Oh it’s you,” “Oh it’s you,” moment. It’s super cute.

Ana: So that’s the main romantic interest I would say. Although there is not really a romance or anything.

Renay: These are young adults and so they obviously have relationships, but it doesn’t take over the comic. It’s just really cute.

Ana: What I liked about Quinn, too, is that he was totally grossed out by the guy’s behavior, and I’m like, “Huh, you are a nice dude.” Like, but a real one, not a capital letters Nice Guy.

Renay: Hashtag #notallniceguys. [laughter]

Ana: Yeah.

Renay: So if this sounds great, you should check it out, and now we’re gonna talk about some spoiler stuff from the comics so you can move on to the next segment if you don’t wanna be spoiled for Hawkeye: Kate Bishop. And you don’t because it’s great. You should all read it.

Ana: Spoiler tag!

Renay: What did you think about the villain of the first arc?

Ana: I had mixed feelings about it. Because this girl is being stalked, and Kate finds her stalker, who is the type of person who is oblivious to the negative consequences of what he’s been doing. “Oh, but I love her!” As though that explains and excuses any kind of behavior. But that kind of feeds into the larger narrative of the first four issues, of which there is this guy, who is feeding off hatred to become this monstrosity, I guess. And he does that by brainwashing people.

I couldn’t tell you whether this guy, for example, Mikka’s stalker, because he kept saying, “Oh I didn’t do this. I didn’t want to do this,” so in a way that’s story detracts from actual stalkers and people who do that on their own by excusing him because he was being brainwashed. At the same time, though, I wish it had been a little bit clearer on whether those people that were being brainwashed already had that darkness inside them, and they were being tapped for it.

Renay: Yeah, that’s how I took it, but I agree that it’s a little bit ambiguous and I wish it had been clearer. The way I read it is that the guy who was specifically stalking Mikka online was just gross. He was a creep. He was the guy that comes into the coffee shop and he ignores your headphones. That guy. We all know that guy.

Ana: Yeah, I met one just last night. Yes.

Renay: Then there is a cult on campus, which apparently gets tapped, too. Which feels very much like it’s aping the recent spate of white supremacists, sexist, groups that already exist.

Ana: Yeah, because the group’s motto was Take Back Control, right? With everything that is happening just this weekend in America, it really felt very topical.

Renay: I agree that you have a good point about the ambiguity. I really liked it because it tied together stuff that women go through all the time. But yeah, I really wish it had been a little more clear and explicit about whether the people are like being controlled or if they were doing it on their own? Because there is no excuse for this type of behavior at all in the real world.

Ana: And it has plenty of that. So it’s right there all the time, women know about it. I felt a little bit not so sure, because it wasn’t very clear where the limits were. Kind of like, “Oh, everybody is innocent,” but hmm.

Renay: I don’t think everybody is innocent from sending emails and stalking somebody online. On the plus side at least the comic did come down on the whole “women do not deserve to be harassed” really, really hard.

Ana: Mm-hm.

Renay: Mikka gets saved and her and Ramone have this cute little moment at the denouement of this plot where love conquers the hatred.

Ana: And it’s also how the big guy’s defeated in the end. He’s so big and inflated with all the hatred. And then Kate takes him towards the Sound of Music showing at the beach. The songs of love defeat him.

Renay: This guy ties into a larger story that’s happening by connecting this guy that Kate captures who’s doing all this to Kate’s father who is missing. She’s looking for him.

Ana: Yeah, that’s the larger arc.

Renay: When he’s caught, the cop—I didn’t mention this earlier but I love that a local cop, she’s a detective, and her and Kate become mentor and mentee and it’s super great—the cop calls Kate down to the precinct to talk to this guy, and while they’re talking the guy references Kate’s dad then he explodes. And you get the feeling that he was exploded remotely.

Ana: Yes.

Renay: For trying to talk about Kate’s dad. I’m intrigued to see what’s going on there. The second storyline was an Inhuman story where a lady is looking for her missing sister. I really liked this one. It tackled relationships between sisters. It had Jessica and Kate’s mentor/mentee relationship, which was way more like a collaboration than a hierarchical system, which I talked about in my text review of this volume. And it felt so much like other mentor relationships I’ve had where you enrich each other instead of just like the mentor descending from on high.

Ana: Absolutely, yes.

Renay: I like that it tackled beauty standards. This woman who is missing looked a certain way and then she got hit by terrigen mist and she changed, because when Inhumans come in contact with terrigen it unlocks their powers if they have the gene. So she became super beautiful, but she now transforms into a dragon. Randomly. So, it’s kind of saying just being beautiful won’t make you happy.

Ana: But it was not a condemnation of beauty. However, it did show how she didn’t feel comfortable in her own skin anymore. At the same that it showed how men are so super-fucking-ficial. And that also ties in with Kate’s dad. Because the boyfriend or a crush or someone who had like a crush on her, knows of a guy who can change bodies. And I’m guessing that’s exactly the same thing that happened to the guy from the first four issues. That’s Kate’s dad.

Renay: Jessica Jones in this was super funny and I loved all Kate’s asides where she just picks up advice. I think overall this comic was really good at showing that Kate is really competent and strong and smart, but she’s still learning.

Ana: Yeah, and also it doesn’t have superpowers.

Renay: She does not. She’s just got a lot of great physical skills. One good example I think that summarizes this way Kelly Thompson wrote her to make competent but still learning—still young—is that when she’s trying to find information about where Mikka might have gone she goes to the campus. And she wants to use a computer so she steals somebody’s ID and like puts her hair up and wears a disguise and goes into the computer lab. She’s using the computer—and this is how she meets Quinn—and he asks her if she needs any help and she gets really angry when he calls her Sunshine because he goes ,”Hey Sunshine, can I help you?” and she gets reall,y really upset and it’s because she stole the ID without looking at the name on the ID because if she had looked at the name on the ID when she stole it she would have known that. And so it’s these little small things that Thompson that show us that Kate is still learning how to do this job. Without undermining her, right?

Ana: Yes. Absolutely. Without making her sound incompetent or fragile. She’s learning. It’s a process.

Renay: Yeah, I love this comic. I’m super excited for the next one.

Ana: I love the voice of the comic. It’s funny and snarky. It carries from the Fraction Hawkeye, right? The voice is still there so I really like that Thompson still manages to capture that character that already existed.

Renay: Yeah, if you liked Hawkeye: L.A. Woman, this will definitely be where you wanna go next. It’s wonderful.

Ana: Yeah.

Renay: So how many space bees?

Ana: Five.

Renay: I’m giving it four.

Ana: What?!

Renay: Yeah, I’m giving it four! You talked me into four!

Ana: You just talked me into five!

Renay: That’s really funny.

Ana: Is it because of my comments about —?

Renay: Yes.

Ana: So it was all your comments about women that made me want to give it five.

Renay: I think it’s fine. We just switched. It’s fine. It’s still nine. That’s a lot of space bees.

Ana: There’s a balance in the Force.

Renay: So the next volume of this comic comes out in December. Hawkeye: Kate Bishop: Anchor Points is again by Kelly Thompson, Leonardo Romero, Michael Walsh and Jordie Bellaire, and you can find it wherever you get your comics.

[music break]

Renay: Our guest today has a list of achievements that stretches into the horizon. She’s an award-winning writer, editor, and podcaster. You can read her work in recent publications like Kaleidoscope, an anthology of YA speculative short fiction from Twelfth Planet Press and hear her talking about SFF culture and news on the Hugo Award winning podcast Galactic Suburbia.

Ana: Hello, Tansy! Welcome to Fangirl Happy Hour!

Tansy: Hi, it’s lovely to be here. That was a very nice intro. Thank you.

Ana: This the best crossover event—

Tansy: [laughter]

Ana: —since Buffy showed up in Angel and they had sex. Since CSI: Miami showed up on CSI: New York.

Tansy: Ana, what have you got planned for us this episode?!

Ana: Nothing. We don’t even need to plan anything for this to be the best thing ever.

Tansy: Okay, no pressure.

Renay: I’m going to need you to rewind and go back to the Angel and Spike thing.

Ana: No! What Angel and Spike? Buffy showed up in Angel and they had sex, and then he forgot all about it. That killed my heart. I cried so much during that episode.

Renay: I think I just misunderstood you because the way I heard that is that Angel and Spike had sex?

Ana: Oh Renay.

Tansy: No that wasn’t till season five! Come on!

Renay: I’m predictable.

Tansy: My goals for this episode have now radically changed. [laughter] I have to say!

Ana: Oh my god, can you imagine if that had happened?

Renay: It did in fandom.

Ana: I bet. Did you ship Spike and Angel?

Tansy: Me?

Renay: Well, did either of us?

Ana: Any of you? It just literally never occurred to me that this was a thing until just now.

Tansy: Well, like the Spike/Angel/Dru triangle was pretty clearly a triangle. I kind of assumed that was canon, both in season two and in flashbacks.

Ana: That’s true. I forgot about that.

Renay: I wasn’t in Buffy fandom.

Tansy: Buffy was actually the first fandom I kind of put my toe in the water with in that I actually started reading fic for it and it was online and it was all very exciting. That was when I was so fell in love with Buffy during season two, and then between season two and season three screening in Australia I managed to find and read the screenplays of almost all of season three. Which kind of in retrospect completely ruined season three for me? Like I really enjoyed reading those screenplays, but I had to admit watching episodes without having done that ahead of time is kind of better. So I taught myself a very important lesson that year.

Ana: I was super into Buffy and in Brazil we were I think we were behind a little bit, but it was the first time where I was actually trying to go online to get information about something that was media related. And I found I think it was called Spoiler Slayer Forum and I think this is the first time that I learned the word spoiler. And then I was reading everything so I think we were one week behind in Brazil and then I would go to that website and read all the spoilers for the next episode and be prepared.

Tansy: [laughter]

Ana: And that was around season five, because I knew what happened at the end of season five one week in advance—

Tansy: [gasp]

Ana: —and I was prepared for it.

Tansy: Actually I think that would be better. I think it was through starting to read fic with Buffy was the first time that I came across the thing that’s the ship that squicks you out. I’m a multishipper, so it’s actually quite hard to find a ship that I’m not like, “Yeah, I’m onboard with this,” because I’m normally on board with 90% of all ships. But it was Willow/Angel. I couldn’t cope.

Ana: Oh!

Tansy: It was just like ,”Why!”

Ana: What! No! What?!

Tansy: I know, right? But I also discovered my first crack ship, which was Xander/Batman. Which you would not think would work, but it was this just amazing fic which was all about Xander and—it wasn’t them getting together. It was about Xander and Batman explaining to all their friends that they were now together. Still hands-down best fanfic I’ve ever read.

Ana: Xander and Batman.

Tansy: Xander and Batman. Just imagine Xander explaining to Buffy how he’s now dating Batman. Just—so good.

Ana: That is a—the best crossover ever.

Tansy: I’m really sure I didn’t make that up. I wish I’d made that up. I’m sure someone can find the fic.

Ana: So that we can show it to the world.

Renay: Meanwhile the person who has not even yet finished Buffy is like, “Okay?”

Tansy: “Yeah, when does Batman show up?”

Ana: [laughter]

Renay: Does this happen in season six or seven?

Tansy: Oh it’s totally like very close to the end of season seven, so you have to hang in there right to the end.

Renay: I think with Buffy, the first time I watched it was when it first started. I watched the first three episodes and then my cable company got rid of the channel it aired on or it went to another channel that we didn’t get? It got moved. This was in early days, like of UPN in my area, and Buffy went there and I could not follow. Then I didn’t see any episodes again until I watched the latter half of season five.

Tansy: Wow, that’s quite a leap.

Renay: Yeah, I was very confused. I’m like, “What the hell is going on?!”

Ana: Then all of a sudden Willow is gay, and…

Tansy: And half the characters are gone, and—

Renay: It was very confusing.

Tansy: I recently had my big Buffy rewatch. Which I haven’t rewatched it for years and years and years, but I decided that my daughter was old enough to—she was turned twelve over the summer—and so we watched Buffy all the way through together, which was fascinating experience because it was like such a beloved rewatch for me, but also it’s so old now. And she’s like so young and snarky and with it, but also kind of already very suspicious about her media. Like she came to this knowing that Joss Whedon kills people, for instance. So every time Oz came onscreen she’s like, “He’s gonna die in this episode, isn’t he?” [laughter] She was, you know, she was hardened to the realities of what the show can kind of do for you. It was a really interesting experience. I think she may actually be ready for Veronica Mars. It’s quite exciting.

Ana: Did she like Buffy then in the end?

Tansy: She really liked it, yeah! She liked it a different way to how I liked it, I think, and she liked it like—there’s stuff about it that she kinda disapproved, but we had some really great conversations about it. Like for instance the whole Willow/Tara thing and the historical perspective of how presenting a lesbian relationship on screen has changed since Buffy. She reads all sorts of comics and sees TV shows and she sees gay relationships presented in all sorts of different ways and of the idea that like ,”Yeah, see how it went, the kiss that stopped the nation, people kept talking about that lesbian kiss.” That’s a year after they’ve obviously been dating, sleeping together, are now living together and sharing a bed, and they shoved the kiss into the episode where other traumatic stuff is happening, you know, hoping to slide it by. So she found that kinda stuff quite interesting, I think. I hope she did because she got. many pop culture history lectures while watching. [laughter] She’s used to that from me.

Renay: You know who else is ready for Veronica Mars? Ana hasn’t seen it.

Ana: What are you talking about?!

Renay: Have you? When?!

Tansy: Wow.

Ana: What do you mean, when?!

Renay: I asked you about it!

Tansy: I feel so lucky to be here for this conversation. [laughter]

Ana: No, you didn’t ask me about it, because I would have said the truth! Of course I’ve seen it. I’ve seen the show. I’ve seen the movie.

Renay: Ana, I asked you about this like three months ago and you were like, “No I haven’t seen that show!”

Tansy: [laughter]

Ana: Renay, are you sure this conversation was with me?

Renay: Yes!

Ana: So maybe I misunderstood and it was something else because I have watched Veronica Mars!

Renay: Okay, good. I was about to be like, “Wait a second, I’m not nuts. I remember this conversation,” so again it was like the Chariots of the God thing. It’s fine.

Ana: For the record I do not recall this conversation.

Tansy: [laughter]

Ana: [laughter]

Renay: Which is not a surprise, your memory is not

Ana: It’s terrible, but I wouldn’t have forgotten Veronica Mars.

Tansy: You don’t forget Veronica Mars.

Renay: Okay. I’m really relieved.

Tansy: I’m a little disappointed because that means you cross it off the bucket list, right. Maybe you need to do a rewatch,

Ana: Maybe.

Tansy: See if you see if it holds up.

Ana: I would like to see if my love for Logan would hold up.

Tansy: It’s hard to see that aging well, but I dunno. It’s the bad boy thing, isn’t it? It’s like the older you get the more embarrassing it is, but at the same time, it’s not like there was that much competition. Duncan is still gonna be terrible.

Renay: We’re gonna get so many emails from people who love Duncan going, “Excuse you?!”

Ana: Who loves Duncan?

Renay: I know friends who like him a whole lot.

Tansy: Really? Oh no. Because it’s not like Angel and Spike, it’s like Nice Guy™. Oh, though, speaking of which: I don’t know if you guys have watched Glow yet, which is the Netflix women’s wrestling show, a character turns up who’s a kind of douchey rich boy producer and I’m like, “Who is that guy? Why does his face look so familiar even though he’s dressed like the eighties?” Which, you know, it confuses you, and it was Piers, is that his name? Who was like you know the boring third season boyfriend.

Ana: Ugh.

Tansy: Him. And was still like weirdly still around by the—for the movie, and it’s just like, really? He’s much better in Glow, which is to say he’s terrible, but he’s much better as a terrible character than like a nice character.

Ana: So do you recommend Glow then?

Tansy: Oh, I loved it! And even where like there’s problematic stuff, it’s really interesting problematic crunchy stuff? And I like how fast it is? It’s like these really punchy—it’s like sitcom length episodes, but it’s more drama than comedy. But it is quite funny. And it’s just this huge cast of women being really interesting and punching each other. It’s so eighties. It’s so eighties. You’ve got eighties music, eighties clothes, eighties training montages. There’s a lot to like in it.

Ana: I’m so in. I’m definitely gonna get to watch this, maybe even today, start.

Tansy: Yeah.

Ana: But it’s interesting that you say that it’s fast, because most of the reviews that I have seen mention how slow it is.

Tansy: Nooooo. No. Cause I mean the episodes are like twenty minutes? And it’s really punchy. It’s quite emotional. I mean, yeah, if you watch it all in one go, which you know, we spread it out probably over about a week and a half, with one or two episodes a night, and yeah, it was always a shock that the episode was over. It was very fast and punchy. If you tried to like sit and watch it over a whole weekend as I know some people did, it probably as a kind of edited together, I guess, what, six hour movie or something. Yeah, I guess I can see how that would be kind of slow.

No, I loved it. And I really liked seeing Alison Brie, who I did like in Community but she’s sort of that high peppy super cutesy school girl character, and here’s she’s playing somebody very different, very difficult to like and actually kind of embracing her inner villain.

There’s a lot of really interesting stuff about women and the perceptions of them in the entertainment industry. There’s a lot of cool stuff in it. I’ve seen some of the criticism and I think it’s right, a lot of the stuff they don’t delve into perhaps quite deeply enough. But hopefully they’ll have future seasons to do that, because this is a really good start. And just seeing like so many different kinds of women all together in this massive ensemble and they’re not in a prison.

One of the national Australian conventions a couple of years ago, it was just as Bitch Planet had come out, the comic, and there was Orange Is The New Black, there was also Wentworth, which is the Australian, it was the reboot of Prisoner Cellblock, Prisoner, which is you know the Australian classic female prison drama. So we had these like three huge female ensemble media things, but all based around prisons. It’s like, “Can we have other scenarios?” I think the panel ended up discussing things like the Golden Girls quite a bit, and you know where are these shows?

Glow is a really good step in the right—like it’s one of those things where it’s a good thing in itself but also hopefully a really commercial precedent that is kind of show it can work, that it doesn’t have to be equal, balanced. No, we can just like make a show that’s just about women.

Ana: And that’s not a problem. Yeah.

Renay: I think we should take all the shows right now that have majority male casts and just reboot them all with women.

Tansy: Well, it’s like how they’re these reshoots for Justice League and you know what, I think pretty much every Hollywood movie could do with having like fifteen minutes of Amazons added to it?

Renay: Exactly.

Tansy: Like, why not? Let’s face it, that’s – that’s probably what would have saved things like the Mummy. Or Baywatch, like the Baywatch movie! Do you think it really would have tanked so badly if they’d had fifteen minutes of Amazons fighting in the first fifteen minutes? I didn’t think so.

Renay: We could remake the Voltron thing.

Ana: Yeah.

Renay: I’m currently watching that and I’m just like, “Wow, there’s just so many dudes here.”

Tansy: I remember that from watching that like the first time round. That and Battle of the Planets were on when I was little, and there was lots of playing them in the playground but each of them only had one female character. And so if you had a group of friends and more than one woman in the group then it’s like, “Well who gets to be the girl character?” So it’s very frustrating.

Renay: Looking back on my childhood, yeah. I had a lot of the Smurfette Principle. Obviously, there’s reasons that I flocked to things like Rainbow Brite, My Little Pony…

Tansy: Well Jem and the Holograms, which I loved as a kid. Because my daughter is called Jemima, my youngest. When she was first born I thought Jem was gonna be her nickname. I turned out to be hilariously wrong! But I thought it was going to be her nickname, so I bought a DVD of the first season or the first like six episodes or something of the original Jem and the Holograms. It’s such a terrible—it’s just so terrible! But I watch it and the songs come on, and my little heart just, you know, it grows three sizes. The songs are still amazing. It is really quite legit terrible.

Renay: I have a Barbie tape like that, because when I was a kid, they’d released this disco dance Barbie, and I got it for Christmas and it came with a cassette tape, and it has these amazing songs on it. That I go and I listen to now and if you like eighties music—

Tansy: I totally want these songs.

Ana: I don’t think I have ever watched any of those and I’m thinking that my favorite childhood cartoon was Dungeons & Dragons and that had two women—Diana and Sheila. And one of them was a black woman.

Tansy: I do remember that from back when we had Saturday morning cartoons in Australia. I think it was one that came along quite late-ish when I was sort of watching cartoons, so I don’t remember there being a lot of it. Probably much like you in Brazil the TV we got was kind of erratic. You’d get a season of something and then you never hear of it again, and we didn’t have Wikipedia back then.

I remember because I was obsessed, like high-key obsessed, with Grange Hill, which is the British school comprehensive soap, basically, for kids. And it came to Australian TV so erratically, like it would usually be on our national broadcast, which is the ABC. Sometimes it would be on after school. And sometimes they’d do that thing over the holidays where they’d just show an episode every day for two and a half weeks and then it was over? I was always so stressed at the possibility that I might miss it because I was deeply obsessed. It was one of the first shows I was so fannish about I collected the books. And in fact a couple of years ago I found out that all the early seasons I never got to see were on Youtube, and I just spent a good chunk of the summer holiday watching them. Like seventies school soap. Just cause I finally got to see them.

Renay: No shame, no shame.

Tansy: No shame. Grange Hill was actually kind of awesome for its time. It was one of those shows that was quite weirdly progressive? It was totally the whole after school special earnest real life issues kinda show, but because it was London, it was just unbearably exotic to me. Because I’m sort of—Australian but with an English mother, who didn’t really approve of me watching TV shows that weren’t English. She’d didn’t really approve of American TV, but she didn’t really approve of Australian TV, either. I watched a lot of British content as a child.

Ana: From memory I feel like my entire childhood was watching Dungeons and Dragons, so I remember it being on TV all the time.

Tansy: Yeah…

Ana: When I moved here I actually got the DVDs, and there was only twenty-eight episodes altogether of this thing that I have a memory of watching my entire childhood.

Tansy: It’s funny, maybe it’s one of those that they just repeated over and over. It’s like in Australia we had that with a couple of shows, particularly Doctor Who and The Goodies, the British show The Goodies. And they repeated so often I think they must have got like a—the ABC must have got a special deal for how many times they’re allowed to repeat these shows. So the sort of seventies era Doctor Who got repeated over and over for about fifteen years, which means that my partner who’s ten years older than me has the same childhood TV memories that I do? Because the same shows were being repeated! Not even just those shows, but like the cartoons that were stuck in between them as well. It’s all very strange but it means that there’s actually this whole generation between forty-something and fifty-something, in Australia, that’s just so deeply immersed in classic Doctor Who regardless of any kind of geeky credentials, it’s just like huge numbers of us just watched because it was on all the time at that crucial sort of five thirty in the afternoon timeslot.

Renay: That reminds me of Dallas.

Tansy: That was a late night thing here, so…

Renay: Ana, have you heard of Dallas?

Ana: I have heard of Dallas, but only as a pop culture thing that pops up here and there?

Tansy: Yeah.

Ana: I don’t think it was ever on in Brazil.

Renay: It was a show that my dad loved and he was super into it. And I remember all the drama when it was on. “Who shot—” whoever, the dude.

Tansy: JR! I know that!

Renay: Thank you.

Tansy: I mostly know it from the Simpsons.

Renay: So he was watching it live, and then after it ended they started showing repeats of it. I swear Dallas became like a defining feature of my media intake, just because my dad put it on repeat. He loved this show. Sometimes I get really confused because I can’t tell reality from Dallas. Even now sometimes there will be situations in which I think something that had happened in Dallas was real.

Ana: Oh my god!

Renay: It’s really strange how media can do that to you.

Tansy: Especially when you’re quite young; the stuff that gets inside your head.

Ana: Tansy, would you say that in Australia you get more media from the UK rather than from the US?

Tansy: No, we definitely get a lot from the US. We always have, but probably more now than when I was younger. But a big of part of that is how our TV networks are set up, too. Because when I was little there was the ABC—which is the national broadcaster, which is like free to everybody—and there is one or two commercial stations which was slightly different depending on which states you’re in, and they all kind of borrowed each other’s or used each other’s content, and the commercial stations probably have a higher percentage of US content, whereas the ABC used to get a lot of its stuff straight from the BBC and from Britain.

If you were just watching the ABC, which is not just the film which doesn’t have as many ads and stuff like that, then you get a much higher percentage of the British stuff. Pretty much until the thing that changed was—it was round about the time that things like Sherlock and Downton Abbey got really huge and suddenly the commercial networks realized, “Hey this British stuff actually can bring in the expensive eyeballs.” Something like Downton Abbey you would always have on the ABC. That’s where you get your costume dramas; that’s where you get your British content. And we are a British colony, you know, so that’s always sort of been a big part of our identity. But suddenly it was all going to the commercial networks, and in fact the ABC lost its deal to get all the BBC stuff first, which it used to have, except for Doctor Who because it knew it couldn’t mess with Australians and Doctor Who. It’s gotta be on the ABC.

We also have SBS that was out when I was a kid. World culture is focus of the channel, so it has an awful lot of European content. It has an awful lot of other language content. For instance they do the news in lots of different languages; lots of world movies. They’re the ones that actually screen the soccer and things like that. And that was mainly when it was set up in the eighties it was to appeal to the high migrant population in Australia. But it means we have that world perspective and stuff.

And now we have like all the digital channels and all the paid TV and Netflix, and there’s just so much stuff now. But when I was younger there were only these few channels and so I’d like to say there wasn’t as much American content, but the truth is I was highly filtered. Because my mother doesn’t approve of American TV. She thinks they’re just shouting at each other, so we just didn’t watch it. I can count on like one hand the number of American shows, apart from Saturday morning, obviously, which was mine and she wasn’t paying attention, we just didn’t watch American TV. It was all British stuff. Which was how I kinda grew up with a slightly British accent, in the middle of Australia, but that was specific to my family.

Ana: That’s really interesting. In Brazil—at least when I was growing up—we didn’t get any British television at all. It was all American songs and American TV shows and the TV shows were all dubbed. I didn’t get a chance to actually hear things in English until I moved here. But yeah it’s heavily influenced by the US. Everything, really, like from having shopping malls to TV, music, movies, so much.

Tansy: We also had this really strange thing here in Australia where we don’t really believe in our own success stories. There’s this sense of faint embarrassment about anybody who’s—like celebrities, people who’re famous like pop stars and stuff, and it’s only when they go overseas and get overseas success that they sort of start being accepted here. Somebody like Kylie, for instance, it wasn’t cool to like Kylie Minogue for a really long time in Australia. She kind of had to go off to Britain and get success there in order to be kind of be grudgingly accepted as a success story in Australia.

But we have this reverse thing as well, like, British people get really into the Australian soaps and so an actor who’s been on a couple of years of Home and Away or Neighbours or whatever can go over to UK and get a lot of work, because they have a higher recognition factor in some ways in Britain than they do here. Or they go on the pantomime circuit because they’re seen as really big celebrities. Yeah, I dunno, there’s this odd give and take between Britain and Australia and it’s not always comfortable, because there’s the sort of sense of rivalry and, yeah, there’s sort an aggressive undercurrent under there too which comes from being a colony that hasn’t quite left.

Ana: And bringing it back to science fiction and fantasy, for example, is that a similar thing that happens, too? Or do you see the SFF community in Australia as different or as part of…?

Tansy: Yeah, we absolutely have had that. One of the big differences with Australian science fiction publishing is we really didn’t start getting commercially successful science fiction/fantasy publishing in Australia until the mid-nineties. And you can tag it to the specific author because it was Sara Douglass. And you can tag it to the specific publisher because that was when Harper Collins/Voyager really kicked off, in the mid-nineties, and they had a string of really successful epic fantasy series, mostly written by women, which has meant a very different assumptions around our local book industry with science fiction and fantasy than overseas where they have a much longer tradition and a much more male-author priority kind of tradition. But we have absolutely, we have authors here, who sell much better overseas. And they might struggle to get their next contract here in Australia, but their books are on billboards in the London underground. We have that.

You know, I think to actually make it as Australian author overseas, actually trying to break out, is a really difficult thing. And it usually happens through the mainstream presses, though sometimes not. You have people like Angela Slatter for instance, who’s one of our premier short story writers. She’s just had her first debut novel out last year and she has done a fantastic job of placing herself with several very high-profile indie, kind of smaller boutique presses, but in the UK and the US, to get her stuff out there and seen. And when she sold her first novel it was to Jo Fletcher Books in the UK, so that was kind of interesting as somebody who like, she’s more of a literary fantasy author, I guess? Her stuff’s quite cerebral. It’s not necessarily what you think of as mainstream commercial fantasy. Those seem like sensible decisions, but pretty every Australian author I know has trodden a different path. I mean look at somebody like Margo Lanagan and her path to success is bizarre and makes no sense! She wrote some really amazing YA short story collections, which won a bunch of awards and started getting noticed. And they got noticed enough that she started getting awards internationally and then people started commissioning her to write novels. You see that happening like that path of, “Well you write short stories and you get noticed and you get offers to write novels and stuff.” But she would do original collections of short stories that were published. You know that’s not a path you’ve seen with anybody else. She only started getting published in the big magazines, for instance, because of the success of those collections. It’s like every writer has had to dig a new trail through the bush, because a lot of what’s seen as conventional publishing wisdom doesn’t necessarily work when you’re working from Australia. And just cause somebody else has followed one particular path doesn’t mean that that path is still there for the next person. So we’re all—we’re all wild west out here!

Ana: Would you say that it’s because it has a smaller population and not a lot of fan culture around science fiction and fantasy in Australia as opposed to that in the US?

Tansy: Yeah, I mean absolutely. We have a much smaller population and we have a ridiculous population in that it’s small but it’s geographically arranged in a very strange way so we’re all very distant from each other. We have a handful of cities compared to either say the UK or the US in particular, all very, very spread out. So we do have fan culture and quite passionate, active, fan culture, but everything is small.

You know, our national science fiction convention where we do our big awards and stuff like that. You’re sometimes pushing to get more than three or four hundred people to that. When we host a Worldcon it has two thousand people there and that’s crazy big for a fan convention here. But of course, it’s small potatoes as far as Worldcons go. You know, Loncon was ten thousand and I know that was ridiculously big, but we’re the other end of the scale.

Yeah, so we do have fan community but everything is small. Everything is very DIY. And even though we have one of the, probably highest percentages of readers per capita—we actually have a lot of readers in Australia, you know we’re no Finland, but we’re pretty high up there—but even so it’s very very hard to make a living here as a writer unless you’re also selling overseas. The exception being probably the children’s authors? And some of the non-fiction authors and of course your handful of bestsellers. But the majority of authors, and certainly in genre, if you want to actually be earning a living you’ve gotta be selling books overseas and very few of us get there.

Ana: Has self-publishing taken off there, in any shape or form, do you know?

Tansy: Yeah! There’s lots of self-publishing here and there always has been even before technology made it a lot easier. There were a lot of garages full of books back in the day, particularly in the smaller communities. I live in Tasmania, which is very small—it’s the island down the bottom of Australia. Hobart, the city where I live has a very active literary community. Very little genre, at all. There’s pretty much me and a few others, but you know, even having a few others is quite new and exciting. Cause mostly very literary community and their small presses are like micro presses.

But yeah, absolutely there’s self-publishing and we’ve seen quite a few authors reaching readers that way. Yeah, I’ve seen quite a few who’ve done the self-publishing route and it’s led to something bigger. People like C. S. Pacat, for instance, who’s a, an Australian writing sort of fantasy but with steamy romance aspects and queer characters and that sort of thing; finding an audience through self-publishing and now she’s gone mainstream and sold to a bigger publisher. So yeah we do have those sort of things, and lots of down on the ground self-publishing and lots of small presses.

I mean, for Australia, the science fiction was in the small presses. Before the nineties, before Voyager came along, almost all science fiction or fantasy releases within Australia were some form of small press. And then even after Voyager got going and a few other publishers started coming in there’ve been very few commercially successful science fiction titles. It’s mostly been epic fantasy has been where the money is and the book shop space. Most of science fiction was kept alive through small press.

And short fiction—there’s probably been, I’ll probably make an idiot of myself if I try to guess at numbers. But pretty much as far as Australian published short story collections there’ve been just so few. There’ve been a couple edited by Jack Dann, maybe a couple of others with the big publishers. Jonathan Strahan of course is Australian and though almost all of his books are published overseas and he’s like a premier anthologist. But there’ve been very, very few commercial anthologies so it’s been the small presses keeping the short story alive and viable, with a few commercial outlier exceptions every now and then.

Renay: Speaking of short fiction and short fiction anthologies, you recently finished a Kickstarter for one.

Tansy: I did. I did. Kickstarter is terrifying. It’s so scary. It’s so big.

Yes, I did! This was for Mother of Invention, which is gonna be a really exciting anthology about artificial intelligence; stories with female creators of artificial intelligence and robots. And also we’re extending this to look at creators of less represented genders as well. We’re kind of getting away from the male created artificial intelligence which of course has always been held up as the “women can babies so men make robots” which is the whole Doctor Frankenstein thing and it’s like, “Ehhhh, you know what, I think we can get to more complicated ideas than that!” So that’s what we’re trying to do.

It’s with Twelfth Planet Press, who are obviously one of my favorite small presses here in Australia, though Alisa is kind of separating herself from the small press line as much as possible. It’s hard to know what to call them because they used to be indie presses, but you can’t really use indie anymore because indie now means self-publishing. We were resisting that for quite a while, because indie had a very specific meaning in publishing, but it did change and you gotta embrace change so we tried boutique press for a while which is like don’t expect the books to be cheap but they’ll be small and great.

Ana: Micro presses, too.

Tansy: Yeah, it’s interesting, isn’t it? Micro press means “we’re doing it without a budget but we’re gonna make a damn good book.” But something I’ve often talked about is the small presses are often the ones that manage the overseas distribution and the promotional stuff in ways that the bigger publishers, certainly in Australia, have not got a handle on yet. As an author who’s worked with both, I find that really, really interesting. Some of my best distributed works have been through Twelfth Planet Press for instance. I have a small collection called Love and Romanpunk that came out with Twelfth Planet Press? That was my first book that got proper international distribution to the point where there’s a university in Texas that teaches it as one of its set texts.

Ana: What?!

Tansy: I know! Which was very exciting to me.

Ana: I have read that. It’s really good. I love it.

Tansy: Thank you. So I’m editing, I don’t edit very often. I love it, but you know, I do so many things. I don’t have time for much, but I was pulled back to the editing space a couple of years ago with a friend, Tehani Croft, and we edited Cranky Ladies of History together. Which was also a crowdfunded anthology. So yeah we went bigger. Bigger and bigger for this one. So it was Twelfth Planet Press’ first kickstarter as well. They’d crowdfunded Kaleidoscope a couple of years ago and Defying Doomsday which came out last year, which was the anthology about people with different forms of chronic illness and disability dealing with the apocalypse. So you know, following in the lines of those really exciting books.

I’m editing it with Rivqa Rafael who’s a new editor to fiction, though she’s an experienced science editor, which—kinda needed to bring in somebody with more of the science credentials cause that’s not my strongest area. We just had this crazy whirlwind doing in which we raised a bunch of money for the book!

Renay: I’m really excited about it because number one: robots.

Tansy: Yeah, robots.

Renay: And then some of the listed authors like Seanan McGuire and Nisi Shawl. I was like, “I’m there when it comes out to be purchased.”

Tansy: You know really exciting authors who are really glad that so many of our favourites said yes. So we’re hoping to bring in some more diversity, some newer authors, but it’s exciting! Robot stories!

Ana: Oh, I cannot wait for that.

Tansy: The crowdfunding is kind of overwhelming. It’s like leaping off a big cliff and then just asking people to give you money for a month. It’s very confronting.

Ana: Thea and I are about to start our own kickstarter too, and it’s very—it’s overwhelming actually. First of all just the calculations alone that you have to do—

Tansy: Yes.

Ana: —with regards to fees and Amazon fees and how much Kickstarter and Amazon charge on top of everything. So basically you need an x amount; you to have ask x plus y plus z in order to make it.

Tansy: It’s terrifying because you hear about so many people who, they fulfill their kickstarter; they reach their goal, but they still end up deeply in the red and you can see how it happens.

We made a few errors coming in. Factoring postage is a special kind of nightmare. Let alone the fact that you’re talking about like in our case you’re talking about a publishing project that’ll be happening next year and we don’t know that postage in Australia isn’t going to like, triple, because that’s the sort of thing that’s been happening lately. And then there is that thing that is asking for money. I kept reminding myself of that Amanda Palmer—was it a TED talk she did? About asking? The art of asking for money and that whole thing of like, because she worked as a busker and that thing of holding out your hand and asking for someone to pay you and how that can be really hard as an artist because a big part of you is kind of convinced that what you create isn’t worth something at a monetary level.

Group projects are good because then you can kind of tell yourself that you’re sort of spruiking for your partner. You’re selling the projec, not yourself, that other people are relying on you to get out there and tweet all the time and do that stuff. But I came out the other side feeling really empowered in some way and actually realizing that I needed to do more in taking responsibility for promoting my own stuff and not just the project that is attached to a publisher who will have to pay for any of my budgetary mistakes, you know. Yeah, so it was a very worthwhile experience but yeah it is terrifying as an artist. As a woman, in public, just that thing of asking to be paid. It does feel very uncomfortable. As long as you’ve triple checked your budget.

Renay: Well congratulations on funding it.

Tansy: Thank you.

Renay: I’m really excited to read it when it comes out.

Tansy: I am, too!

Renay: Okay, to wrap up!

Tansy: Yes.

Renay: Name five Australian women writers that you think are the most important for people to check out and read.

Tansy: That’s a horr—that’s an amazing question but I’m also, “who will I leave out, oh my goodness!” Okay well ,I’ve already mentioned Angela Slatter and Margo Lanagan. Both novelists but particularly in the field of short stories, absolutely.

Kate Forsyth: I don’t think her books have really made it as far outside our shores as they should. Her work is extraordinary, but her last probably three or four or five titles have been fantastic combinations of historical fantasy and fairy tale. So Bitter Greens is still her best novel which I love, but she’s written a bunch of others based around combining fairy tales with gritty historical fantasy.

Speaking of historical fantasy, I’m very excited! Kim Wilkins is one of our—she’s been writing almost as long—longer than me. I judge everybody’s career by when I started which is nineteen years ago. Her first novel came out the year before mine, but Kim has come back and forth in a bunch of different authors, she’s actually one of Australia’s most successful women, sort of women’s fiction author. She writes those sort of rural romance, literary, lovely scenery on the book cover kind of books. Which how she makes actual money at this. So she writes as as Kimberley Freeman, and she’s also one of our academic success stories. She works for the university of Queensland and she’s ushered a lot of Australian authors through their PhD, which is very exciting because it allows them—actually pays to write for three years. But most recently she’s started this series of ah epic historical fantasy, with a very kind of viking sensibility and they’re wonderful books.

Okay. I’m gonna talk about Kaaron Warren who is a fantastic writer who I cannot in all conscience recommend to everybody, because she is the sweetest person in the world and she writes some of the most horrific, bone-crunching, soul-chilling horror. Honestly, I look at her works and it’s like, “Do I actually want to read another Kaaron Warren novel because I think it’ll make me feel dead inside?” That’s the kind of horror that she writes. And her last novel, which I haven’t read, because I’m afraid of her work. Her last novel, The Grief Hole, won the the Ditmar this year. She wins a lot of awards, she gets short stories out there in anthologies overseas. She’s one of those people who’s getting her work out there, but she’s not nearly as well-known as she should be, even though she’s just had so much done now. So she’s one if creepy disturbing horror is your thing then Karen Warren will steal your soul.

Renay: I can already tell that Ana is gonna be like, “Let’s read one of these books for the podcast.”

Tansy: [laughter]

Ana: Mm, let’s!

Renay: She always does that when we get rec lists. It’s great. But it’s been really lovely to have you on the show!

Tansy: Oh, it’s been so lovely to talk to you guys. This has been on my bucket list pretty much since you started.

Renay: Aww!

Ana: You were a huge supporter of the podcast, since the start. Thank you.

Renay: You and Alex and Alisa are our podcasting mentors.

Tansy: Aww, that’s wonderful because paying this stuff forward is always something that’s been really important to us. Like we started, there weren’t enough women in podcast talking about the stuff we wanted women to be talking about and having more and more of them out there. It’s exactly what we wanted to have happen.

Ana: And you did it.

Tansy: It’s pretty cool.

[music break]

Renay: It’s time for recommendations! Ana, what’ve you got for us this week?

Ana: So we recently read The Handmaid’s Tale. And very recently I came across a really interesting article that was published up on electricliterature.com and it was called The Epilogue of The Handmaid’s Tale Changes Everything You Thought You Knew About The Book. It was written by Anna Sheffer. That was an excellent article in itself, but it was even greater because it made me rethink a book that was already very thinky. I read the epilogue and I had alarm bells going on through my head throughout reading it, without realizing why. And she goes through and she writes this essay very firmly analyzing why and how the epilogue reframes the narrative because it is all about male historians. So even though the world has moved away from Gilead, it hasn’t completely quite changed or destroyed patriarchy completely because her story’s still framed by men and the way that they look at it. And there are really small elements of it that you can see in the epilogue, for example the way that he describes the underground…

Renay: He calls it underground frailroad.

Ana: Frailroad, exactly. So that gave me so many alarm bells reading it, right? But it never quite clicked why and this essay is excellent. Please go read it. What is your rec?

Renay: My rec is for Rachel Maddow. Rachel has a show on MSNBC, and I admit that I don’t really watch cable news much anymore. I don’t like CNN, although I don’t believe it is fake news. I don’t watch any others. I definitely don’t watch Fox News. I don’t need to watch no state tv thank you. So I’m kind of out. I mostly get my news from the Washington Post or Twitter, but I really love Rachel’s show. it’s so good.

She does news in this really in depth, interesting way, that I just feel is missing from a lot of modern reporting. For example, she has a first twenty minutes of her show, there’s no commercials, she goes really deep on a topic. She’ll start her segment in this really weird place. You’re like, “Why are we talking about X when all the news of the day was O and Q?” But she will get you all the way from X, through the alphabet to O and then Q, and tie it all together and give you all this wonderful context and you learn so much. And I really think that her type of journalism, one day we’re gonna look back and it’s gonna have changed the world because it’s so good.

She’s been on the Russia story since the very beginning. She won’t let the president derail her and it’s really refreshing to see that because all the other shows the president sends a tweet and suddenly they’re in a tizzy going, “Oh my god the president tweeted!” And so I can watch Rachel without worrying that I’m gonna get a thirty-five minute discussion on one tweet from Donald Trump.

She doesn’t do these massive panel discussions. Like sometimes I will turn on the news and there will be a panel discussion, and the TV will be divided into literally eleven sections with the head in each one of the sections. What the hell? How are you going to discuss something with that many—it’s not doable. And it’s really strange that we discuss news in this way, it’s less what happened and how we feel about it than how we’re gonna feel about it in two weeks? It’s this really weird type of analysis and I just don’t like it and Rachel’s show doesn’t do that.

So I highly recommend her show if you don’t watch it. It’s good for people who are new to all these issues, new to watching broadcast journalism, or people like me who have history degrees and are not newbies. It’s good for everybody. It’s great. So:highly recommended.

Ana: I wonder if I can find it on youtube.

Renay: I bet you could probably find some of the stuff on their youtube channel. Yhey do have a youtube channel.

Ana: Excellent recommendations.

Renay: Tell everybody what we’ll be discussing next time.

Ana: On our next Friday episode: I will not be here. Because I’ll on vacation from my eight hundred jobs like Renay says. Yeah, I’ll be on vacation at a undisclosed location where I will just turn everything off and sleep.

Renay: She means go for forty zillion walks up mountains, probably.

Ana: Yes. But! Renay will be holding down the fort with Susan! Also a Hugo award winner. To discuss Final Fantasy VIII, Alanna by Tamora Pierce, and their favorite sequels. I will be back soon. I swear.

[music break]

Renay: Congratulations space bees, you’ve made it to the end of episode 93. Thank you very much to Tansy for coming on our show and talking to us. You can find her on twitter at @tansyrr. She is also over on patreon at musketeerspace and she’s on another podcast, besides Galactic Suburbia, at @veritypodcast on twitter. She does so many things! Thank youm Tansy.

Ana: Yes, consume all the Tansys. Wait, that sounds wrong.

Renay: Hot. If you have any thoughts, concerns, or questions, you can send them to us at fangirlhappyhour@gmail.com. You can chat with us on twitter at @fangirlpodcast, and we’re also over on tumblr and facebook, too.

Ana: If you want to help support our show, you can become a patron. Our patreon address is patreon.com/fangirlhappyhour. We appreciate of our current patrons and those who will become patrons in the future. Hello future patron bees!

Renay: Our show art is by Ira, and our transcripts are by Susan, which you can read at fangirlhappyhour.com. Our interstitial music this week is by Chuki Beats and Boxcat Games.

Ana: If you like this show, please stop by iTunes and leave us a review. Just pretend the stars are space bees and give us all five.

Renay: Have you had some water recently? If not, go get some now. Take care of your meat suit. We like it and we want it keep moving through the universe.

Ana: There’s so many advices I could give this week, but I’ll just keep to, Don’t be a nazi. Don’t be a nazi. Don’t. Be. A nazi.

Renay: Thanks for listening space bees!

Ana: See you next episode.

[music break]

Ana: It’s not like we’ve been doing this for almost three years now.

Renay: Three years.

Ana: Shit.

[beep]

Ana: Wheeeeeee.

[beep]

Ana: [laughter]

Renay: I broke Ana.

[beep]

Ana: I have no words. Today.

Renay: Yeah you do. They’re there. You’ll find them.

Ana: The words have gone.

Renay: Dig;em out. They’re there.

Ana: They’re gone. They’re banned.

[beep]

Renay: If I negative self-talk myself you’ll yell at me, and Jenny will yell at me —

Ana: Yeah, you can’t. Obviously.

[beep]

Ana: Can you hear all the dogs in my neighborhood that have all of a sudden going crazy?

Renay: Not right now.

Ana: No, no, they just stopped right now.

Renay: Of course.

Ana: When I said it. [laughter]

Tansy: Yeah. They’re messing with you.

Ana: Typically.

[beep]

Renay: Ana’s like “Oh god Renay don’t.”

Ana: [laughter]

Renay: “Don’t do that! Don’t scare me.”

Ana: Freaking bed bugs.

[beep]

Renay: Don’t be me, Ana.

Ana: No, Renay what are you talking about I should—I should be you, how many books have you read this year? A billion.

Renay: A hundred and fifteen.

Ana: Yeah, it—[sigh]—shut up.

Renay: [laughter]

[beep]

Ana: Patreon is [raspberry].

Renay: I hope that—I wish that was our patreon address.

[beep]

Ana: And fuck confederacy statues. Just bring them all the FUCK DOWN!

[beep] [beep]